A New Form Of Baptism – Bucket One, Bucket Two, Bucket Three…
Posted on September 17 2009. Comments: 10
Posted by:
Dave Hughes
Today in class we were talking about baptism.
I was sitting there taking in the theological significance of it all, and then doing what I always try to do – imagining what it could look like if you keep the meaning yet recreate the form so it communicates the intended meaning to the participants in as rich and deep way as possible.
We were told that there are five aspects of the faith that baptism symbolises:
- the incorporation into the community of faith (Matthew 28:16-20)
- the union with Christ (Romans 6:1-4)
- it depicts forgiveness of sin (Acts 22:16)
- it symbolises new birth/regeneration (John 3:5, Titus 3:4-5)
- it parallels the reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:37-42)
There’s a bit of a check-list to what actually makes it a baptism:
- You need water
- You need it done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
- You need a public and private affirmation of intention
So here’s what I’m thinking.
You take three big buckets and hook them to the roof just inside the door – the bigger the better. The buckets are filled with water and connected to some kind of pully system which a torrent of water when activated. As the person comes through the door it is said ‘I baptise you in the name of the Father (bucket one), the Son (bucket two), and the Holy Spirit (bucket three)’.
The absolute drenching symbolises the forgiveness of sin, coming through the door to the reception of the people symbolises the incorporation into the community, the three buckets and bells symbolise the union with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, coming out at the end of this drenching is a symbol of new birth, and the whole thing depicts the reception of the Holy Spirit…
What do you think??
Pros and cons??
Today in class we were talking about baptism.
I was sitting there taking in the theological significance of it all, and then doing what I always try to do – imagining what it could look like if you keep the meaning yet recreate the form so it communicates the intended meaning to the participants in as rich and deep way as possible.
We were told that there are five aspects of the faith that baptism symbolises:
- the incorporation into the community of faith (Matthew 28:16-20)
- the union with Christ (Romans 6:1-4)
- it depicts forgiveness of sin (Acts 22:16)
- it symbolises new birth/regeneration (John 3:5, Titus 3:4-5)
- it parallels the reception of the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:37-42)
There’s a bit of a check-list to what actually makes it a baptism:
- You need water
- You need it done in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit
- You need a public and private affirmation of intention
So here’s what I’m thinking.
You take three big buckets and hook them to the roof just inside the door – the bigger the better. The buckets are filled with water and connected to some kind of pully system which a torrent of water when activated. As the person comes through the door it is said ‘I baptise you in the name of the Father (bucket one), the Son (bucket two), and the Holy Spirit (bucket three)’.
The absolute drenching symbolises the forgiveness of sin, coming through the door to the reception of the people symbolises the incorporation into the community, the three buckets and bells symbolise the union with God the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, coming out at the end of this drenching is a symbol of new birth, and the whole thing depicts the reception of the Holy Spirit…
What do you think??
Pros and cons??
Dooozy: Hamish and Andy – A Tribute To Masculinity?
I’m sitting here watching Hamish and Andy’s Caravan of Courage across America. I should be doing my essay, but hey, everyone needs some ‘down’ time right?? ![]()
H&A are HILARIOUS!
There is something about the comradery of Hamish and Andy that is strangely alluring. I think there is something about the connection that H&A have that all men kind of long for – perhaps they take it a little far in the end (by getting married in Vegas!), but the kind of experiences that they get up to are the kind of things that would happen if you get any blokes together over an extended period of time.
I think too that they are tapping into something masculine, but also connecting it to how most of us men really are in the 21st century – not quite there. We don’t have things we would take risks for and we don’t have deep shared experiences that create strong relational bonds…
There’s a few great examples from the show:
- All of us are scared to jump into the crocodile infested waters, but secretly would love the risk, adventure and danger of it
- All of us want to catch a glimpse of the “Skunk Ape”, even if it ends up being a man in a suit…
- Bounty hunter Dave and the Caravan of Courage special moment!!
- Hamish and Andy’s mermaid moment…
- The frat house and manly bonded – ‘the most accepted I’ve ever been’
- The Big Oak had damaged Abravan Lincoln, Baba, the Alabaman policeman, and Lieutenant Ham!
- Jerry and using heaps of gun-powder to blow an anvil sky-high!!
- Confederate from the south, Yankee from the north…”most fun a grown man can have” – hahaha
- The high-school football experience – tackle practice – smashed by a 16 year old! “Don’t you die on me man” – “I saw this happen at the horse races once” lol
- Playing the Bull – 30 seconds in the arena without the cowboys roping him!
Comradery – fun, danger, risk – it’s connected to Frost and Hirsch’s ‘communitas’ – and I think it’s connected to men…
Thank you Hamish and Andy…
Some More Technology To Change The Way We Do Church…
I’m SUPER excited about this technology!
It’s called Cover It Live and it opens up a myriad of possibilities…
Cover it Live is this live blogging/video/feedback software that enables some amazing possibilities online!
An example of it being used is The Nines. The Nine was a live online free conference run by Catalyst and Leadership Network – it was massive, people tweeting about it all over the place, and it was powered by Cover It Live. Live video, after live video, instant tweets, comments, people quoting the speakers, linking to other things – fascinating…
What are the possibilities for church with this kind of software?
Combine this with YouVersion, I posted about a few days ago, and MAN, there are some exciting possibilities for being church into the future…
Tribe Church Update – Parmas, Lattes, and Gender…

Last night a group of us went to Fountain Gate Hotel, hopefully the home-to-be of our Sunday gatherings, to have dinner followed by coffees at the Pancake Parlour just around the corner. There were parmas, salads, roasts, steak sandwiches, and jugs of beer being downed, and later lattes, hot-chocolates, and short-blacks being consumed amidst very interesting discussion about gender.
I was so impressed with the maturity, insight and generosity of the people at the table as we discussed what can often be a very hot and contentious topic!!
I think the position we’re at is that we don’t want to be negative, blunt and without a clear rational of ‘why’ we do what we do, particularly around the gender issue. Lots of people seem to go about this the wrong way. You get on their website and it’s like, ‘we only have men as elders’, and that’s all they say, but that totally misses the point!!
The reason why you have a clearly thought out rationale on gender is so that you can celebrate and champion the causes of both women and men living out a free, deep, rich and wonderful life, to ensure that neither sex is being asked to be something that they can’t or shouldn’t be asked to be.
I actually don’t think your final position, whether you are “comlementarian” or “egalitarian”, is really the sticking point. The proof is, and should be, in the pudding:
- Are men and women in your community celebrated and feel free to be themselves?
- Are women, or men, oppressed and demeaned?
- Are men and women free to pursue what it is they feel God is calling them to?
- Are men and women seeking to serve, to love, to give, to honor the other, or is it about selfishly pursuing power and prestige?
Thinking that women are fundamentally the same as men, or that men and women are fundamentally different, doesn’t safeguard you from abuse, manipulation and suppression. Both positions can lead to the abuse of men or women depending on how you process it. More fundamental than your view on gender is your view on love, on service, on what it means to be a follower of Jesus.
When we start our church we will have a rationale on gender roles. Some will love it, others won’t, some will be thought out about it, most won’t. My challenge to people will be to experience our community, live in it, come stay at our house for a week or two, then tell me: are we celebrating both men and women? Are we loving, serving and giving to each other? Are the men or women feeling stifled and restricted or free and celebrated?
The assumption that people have that being complementarian necessarily means you subordinate women is a false dichotomy. I think you’ll find it depends not on the community’s view of gender, but rather to what degree the people are living out the way of Jesus – to love, serve, and give of oneself for the interests of others.
Those who make gender the primary issue miss the point – it is important, don’t get me wrong, but there are a series of other things that come before it and if you don’t get them right, then you just shoot yourself in the foot.
As an aside, I think the Biblical case for complementarianism is far stronger than that of egalitarianism, but I also think that to make this the hill you die on is absurd, sorry Mr Driscoll.
We want to be a community that is known for loving, serving, giving, and hoping, that celebrates man and woman as equal, and that helps to make the world a better place. Majoring on the minors, or minoring on the majors, just throws everything out of whack.
Postmodernity, Emerging Church, Technological Revolution = Reverse Reformation?
There is so much discussion around at the moment about church planting, postmodernity, reformed theology, missional communities, the use of technology, and more generally about how the church has failed to respond to the sweeping changes in our world.
But is it really a reverse reformation?
Robert Webber seems to think so:
The current communication revolution is a shift away from the didactic nature of the print media to a more experiential form of communication based, ironically, largely on participatory experience. This turn of events is, in a sense, a “reverse Reformation.” Faith is no longer nourished exclusively by doctrine and intellectual speculation, but by imaginative immersion in participatory Christian communities.[1]
There seems to be this kind of thinking that all we need to do is to change the ‘form’, or the vessel, or the container that the message is presented in, and that will then ensure that the Christian faith is accessible to a whole new world:
The current communication revolution obviously raises questions about the future of the Church. How can we expect a positive future for Christianity if it returns to a form of communication that was all but stamped out by the Reformation? Form is an agent of message. The Church must learn to distinguish between the message of faith and the form in which it is communicated. Late medieval Christianity experienced a corruption of its message through the accretion of numerous cultural additions to the faith. The Reformers repudiated both the corrupted message and the form in which it was being communicated. The cultural changes being introduced by contemporary communication calls Christians to find new wineskins for an unchanging wine. Consequently, it is not the historic content of worship that needs to change but the form and style that delivers the content.[2]
What we seem to miss is that the medium is the message. Yes, the Reformers changed the form that the message was being communicated through, but they also changed the message. What makes us think that the message won’t change in this new cultural revolution fueled by the rapid surge in new technology? You change the medium you change the message, you change the message, you change the medium – the two are intrinsically and irreversibly linked.
The Christian faith is full of paradoxes, where if you emphasise one thing, you risk abandoning another, when both need to be held in tension. There seems to be two things at work: a reaction against the imbalance of that which has come before us (postmodernists vs modernists), and a gradual building and acceptance of Christian orthodoxy over-time. Church History seems to attest to the ongoing development of Christian orthodoxy b. Perhaps the core theological debate of the next couple of hundred years will be on gender? Undoubtedly us postmodernists will knee jerk react too far one way on certain issues, others will then knee jerk react against us, and yet over the course of time, within the context of debate and experimentation, orthodoxy will ensue.
It’s not a ‘reverse reformation’.
It’s another counter reformation, in a series of reformations, that started with the early church and will continue until the very end of time. The message will further develop, where truth is retained and built upon, and the form forever adapts to the surrounding culture.
[1] Robert Webber, Planning Blended Worship: Creative Mixture of Old and New, Abingdon Press: Nashville, 1998, 26.
[2] Robert Webber, 28.
YouVersion: Live Sermon/Service Interaction!
YouVersionLive – I’d imagine in most churches checking your phone, let alone surfing the web, or being on the phone for extended periods, would be hugely frowned upon. But here is an app which incorporates web-enabled phones into the worship experience – gotta love it!!
Here’s what their site claims that it does:
- Share content on mobile devices during live events and services.
- Invite interaction through polls, notes, prayers, giving, and more.
- Share results and include feedback in your communication.
- Get people actively involved in the message.
What Will you Create? Weekend service. Conference. Small group. Youth event. Bible study. College class. Explore new ways to communicate the truth that never changes.
Built For Your Mobile - Anyone with a web-enabled phone can use YouVersion Live. Also available for iPhone, BlackBerry, and Android. Laptops and desktops with an Internet connection can join in too!
Design Your Experience – Your choices: message outlines and notes, Bible verses, interactive polls, space for taking notes, questions for response, prayer request area, and online giving.
Easy To Use - Drag and drop the pieces you want to be a part of your experience. You’ll have your own simple admin area of the site to pull it all together. No geek required.
Tribe Rhythms
SmallBoatBigSea is Mike Frost’s emerging church. They have developed a simple rule or order to their communal life:
BLESS – we will bless at least one other member of our community everyday (sms, email etc.).
EAT – we will eat with other members of our community at least three times per week (Sunday nights, accountability group and one other).
LISTEN – we will commit ourselves weekly to listening to the promptings of God in our lives (reflection and contemplation).
LEARN – we will read from the Gospels each week and remain diligent in learning more about Jesus.
SENT – we will see our daily life as an expression of our sent-ness by God into the world.
I really like it – it’s short, snappy, yet holistic in the expectations of what it means to be a follower of Jesus and a part of the SBBS community. It also spells BELLS, which you could have a lot of corny fun with, eg. “have you been ringing your BELLS this week? Wink, wink!” It’s flexible enough to resist legalism, yet functional enough to give people some kind of helpful structure to order their lives, to bring a sense of unity to a diverse and dispersed community and it also helps to make all of life spiritual.
So far what we have is this:
- To follow Jesus means to ‘live simply, give generously, serve freely’ – we’re calling this our ‘culture’
- To be a disciple means to ‘serve the faith community, the local community, and the global community’
- A weekly gathering on Sundays where the whole community gathers and the Bible is explored
- A four week cycle of: house church (with a meal), accountability gathering (2 or 3 people for coffee/breakfast etc.), house church (with a meal), and a ‘tribe’ gathering with 2 or 3 house churches coming together for a party or to serve the local community or for some kind of teaching
- Reactive discipleship – our goal is to get our community out into the wider community and engaging with serving and loving people, in response to this there will be questions, queries, concerns and training needed to respond to certain situations, so the community has formal and informal relationships that can help ‘reactively’ disciple people to live more fully as a follower of Jesus in the wider community
I think we need to express the idea of ‘Sent’, ‘Bless’ and ‘Listen’ somehow, and come up with some kind of memorable expression which gives shape to the ‘rhythms’ of the community.
Any ideas??!
Third Places, Cafe and Spicy Sausages
If you know anything about doozy, you would have heard about an idea to run a cafe or a ‘commercially viable community hub’ or something of that kind of nature as the main meeting point for our faith community.
I was skim-reading “Exiles – Living Missionally in a Post-Christian Culture” and I was reminded of the ‘Third Place’ terminology. Frost quotes from sociologist Ray Oldenburg’s 1990 book “The Great Good Place: Cafes, Coffe Shops, Community Centers, Beauty Parlors, General Stores, Bars, Hangouts and How They Get You Through the Day.“
Oldenburg tells us that Third Places are crucial to community because they are distinctive informal gathering places, they make the citizen feel at home, they nourish relationships and a diversity of human contact, they help create a sense of place and community, they invoke a sense of civic pride, they promote companionship, they allow people to relax and unwind, they are socially binding, they encourage sociability instead of isolation, they make life more colourful and they enrich public life and democracy.
Our first place is home, our second place is work, and the third places in our societies are the bedrock of community life and provide all the benefits that come from social interaction. They can be restaurants, bars, coffee shops, the beach, the shopping centre – it’s the place where you just like to relax and be you.
I’d imagine peoples best ‘churchy’ experiences are ones where they discover a third place which is their church community. I want to create a third place for our faith community which is also a third place for lots of other people in the wider community.
For Oldenburg a functioning third place must be free or at least inexpensive, there must be food and drink, they must be highly accessible to the neighbourhood so people can make it a regular part of their routine, a lot of people should be able to walk to it from their home, it should be space where people regularly go on a daily basis, where people feel welcome, comfortable and it’s easy to enter into conversation, and where a person can find both old and new friends on each trip to the place.
So how do we create a cafe or community hub which is a functional third place????
I was thinking:
- Free water, tea and coffee (of the instant variety – people can pay for the good stuff) – that way no one is excluded if they don’t have the money…
- Free internet use for those with a concession card…
- Cheap but classy snacks like spicy sausage hot dogs and Italian style pizza slices…
- Some kind of arty/creative expression people can participate in…
I’m sure there are other ideas out there – the trick is having the space as inclusive, commercially viable and meaningful all at the same time – good luck with that Doozy!
I’m also wondering whether the technological advancement since the early 90s have changed the nature of Third places? Are online communities fulfilling that function more and more?
The Deconstruction Playground: Exploration, Experimentation and Adoption Cycle
Starting a Jesus-centred community, or church, from nothing is an exciting proposition. I mean, we literally get to rethink everything…EVERYTHING! From leadership structures to how resources are allocated, from expectations of what it means to follow Jesus to the space we meet in, all of it is up for discussion! Of course, we do have central pillars of unity – Scripture, Jesus and Mission – but we don’t have the cultural hang-ups, the customs, the power structures, the locational restraints of an existing church, which gives us plenty of room to play in.
Yet every ‘playground’ has some boundaries, some fences, and some tan-bark to break the fall when things don’t go so well – what are the boundaries and what is the process for a church plant? And what is going to be our process to ensure everyone plays nicely and no one gets hurt?
I think that this is the primary task of leadership. It is the process of facilitating and enabling a faith community to emerge and wrestle with some very core issues of identity and expression, and to come to a consensus which empowers the whole to be more effective, fruitful and united.
Whilst pioneering can be exciting, it can also be pretty scary for people who are part of the process, who find themselves playing in the church-planting playground. All of us invest different levels of meaning and significance into different expressions and experiences of church, particularly if we’ve grown up with certain expressions and have people we love and respect who still hold tight to these expressions. Once you start stripping these things away, it can feel very personal and it can be hard to understand what is happening. We can quickly realise that the very things that the new church are viewing as hang-ups are the same things that have provided a level of comfort, security and meaning in our spiritual journeys for a long time.
I often read sharp critiques of postmodernism’s tendency to deconstruct everything until there is nothing left. But deconstructionism in and of itself is not necessarily a bad thing, I actually think it’s a good and necessary process. Without deconstruction you cannot reconstruct, without pulling things apart you cannot put something back together again. Church planting, in essence, is taking the core essentials of the Christian faith and re-expressing, re-engineering, reconstructing them to engage in a new culture. It is when you begin to deconstruct beyond the boundary markers, when you step over the unity essentials where you hit problems and begin to miss the entire point of what you are doing.
The other problem we face is how to ensure a safe deconstruction-reconstruction journey which breathes life, depth and intimacy instead of alienation and hurt. Deconstructionism can be extremely bad if you either (1) go tooooo far, or (2) are not sensitive and thought out in the process of how it’s done. I’ve been thinking that a good process or rhythm would be to move through three phases of: exploration, experimentation and adoption.
We explore through Scripture, sharing, discussion and dialogue, trying to discern what the Spirit is saying to the faith community.
We experiment with how to apply these insights after exploration and hearing the voices of the community.
We adopt practices which resonate with and are meaningful for the worshipping community, and we continually critique our practices and positions through ongoing exploration and experimentation.
This should help to minimise the hurt of ‘change’ and at the same time create ownership and shared meaning throughout the whole community of the practices we do adopt. People would then know that when we’re in the ‘exploration’ phase on any given topic that we are just searching out, hearing perspectives, and working hard to hear what it is God is saying to us as a community. It’s important that in these exploration times that the individual wrestles with their perspective and motives and input them into the community for critique and feedback. We then start trying to apply this by adding experimentation to our ongoing exploration, before finally adopting practices and positions which resonates with the community.
So I imagine our Sunday gatherings will be quite minimalistic early on: perhaps just a talk from Scripture and a sharing of where the community is at? Over time we add expressions of worship, prayer, music, art, stories, media, sharing and other meaningful practices depending upon the exploration/experimentation/adoption cycle which is shaped by the community itself.
In this way, ‘worship’ will be both meaningful and indigenous to the culture we trying to engage with. I’m not sure how I made the jump to just ‘worship gatherings’, but the logic and the process can be applied to any number of the things mentioned at the start (leadership structures, resource allocation, expectations of following Jesus, space we meet in etc. etc.)!
Am I missing something here?
What do you think?
Comments
Saturday, 19 September 2009
Luke says:
Hi Dave,
Sacraments are given meaning and authority by the Word, I can’t see your model, amusing as it is, doing that.
Monday, 21 September 2009
Tim Foster says:
Hi Dave, Jane and Luke
Thanks for the post Dave. Not sure I get it! But, what’s new.
I’m interested in Luke’s comment, “Sacraments are given meaning and authority by the Word”. Could you unpack that a little please? By ‘the Word” or “words”?
Monday, 21 September 2009
Luke Isham says:
‘The Word’ as phrase means both the individual person of Jesus (John 1:14) and the entire canon of Scripture, divinely co-authored by God (2 Timothy 3:16).
Monday, 21 September 2009
Rhys Bezzant says:
One sits back and ponders…
Monday, 21 September 2009
Luke Isham says:
...the meaning of the universe?
Tuesday, 22 September 2009
Cat Patrick says:
Hiya Dave,
I love the fact that it’s a fantastic drenching, which emphasises how much of a cleansing Jesus’ blood gives us - much more so than a sprinkle. ![]()
I think there’s something about being dunked in a body of water (whether bathtub, font, river, swimming pool) which communicates that we are dead in our sins and powerless to save ourselves. Baptism is quite a humble and vulnerable thing to submit to.
You lose that side of things with your idea. Walking through a door communicates a lot which might suggest that it is our choice, not based in humility, powered by our own will.
Anyway, just my pondering today (in between thoughts about the Lord’s Supper)...
Wednesday, 23 September 2009
Dave Hughes says:
Yo Jane - I think that the water would symbolise enough oneness? I guess it’s the same argument about having one cup in communion - isn’t it enough that the wine is from the same source? You don’t ensure that the bread is in the one container?! But you’re right, I think the whole being dunked thing is probably the most convincing argument against my suggested baptismal plan! I’m not sure how it could be incorporated either…
Regarding your question: “would doing like this be for the sake of being different, or so people aren’t weirded out by more ‘typical’ baptism, or so there could be a heightened sense of celebration, or…?” I think because with the years and years of ritual build-up things can lose their meaning - so it’s just an attempt to reinfuse the sacraments with its original intended meaning for new generations of people.
@Luke - you say, “Sacraments are given meaning and authority by the Word, I can’t see your model, amusing as it is, doing that.” Why not? How does traditional forms of baptism do it in a way that this way could not?
How good is Ridley blogging! haha
Wednesday, 23 September 2009
Luke Isham says:
Hi Dave,
There should always be some sort of accompanying explanation based on Scripture. A traditional form of baptism will generally highlight the necessary ideas from Scripture for both the participates and the congregation.
Monday, 28 September 2009
Jane says:
Dave - how’s this:
when people walk through the door, they walk into a pool/bath tub - and also have the drenching from above. Then you get the dunking and the drenching.
And at every point things are explained - or at enough points things are explained - so that people understand what is being represented. Would be a hard line to walk to balance helping people understand what is happening without it getting overly silly.
But I like the way your mind works.
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Thursday, 17 September 2009
Jane says:
hey Dave,
A pro: love your creativity.
A con: three buckets - could people miss the oneness of the trinity and emphasise the threeness too much? (in a bath, river or font the water is from the same place - not that I have ever spent much time reflecting on the oneness of God because of the water though. I have reflected on dying with Christ/being buried with Christ as people are dunked tho - would you try and work this into your baptism plan?)
A question: would doing like this be for the sake of being different, or so people aren’t weirded out by more ‘typical’ baptism, or so there could be a heightened sense of celebration, or…?
Would be amusing to be part of such a baptism!